Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 38 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 65 (“Cersei”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 65: Cersei
What Happens
Cersei fears her upcoming ordeal, afraid that the mob will rape her like they did Lollys during the bread riots, but tells herself that she is a Lannister and will quail before no one. She wonders if she is foolish to trust Kevan’s word that this is the only safe way to extricate her, since Jaime is not here to be her champion and she does not dare allow the Faith to judge her in a real trial. She tells herself that nothing but her pride will suffer, but still hopes against hope that Jaime will come for her.
The septas shave her, everywhere, and give her a robe but no sandals. She meets her guard of Warrior’s Sons, which include Lancel. She exits the doors to stand on the steps, and suddenly recalls standing in the same place when Joffrey had ordered Eddard Stark’s execution, even though he had been supposed to spare him and send him to the Wall instead. She thinks of how differently everything would have gone if he had done so. She stands before the hostile throng, raises her head, and tells herself she will soon be with Tommen in the Red Keep. The septas announce her crimes and her punishment of this “walk of atonement.” Cersei remembers how her grandfather’s lowborn mistress had been rode out of town naked and ashamed, but tells herself she is a lioness, and will not cringe. She takes off the robe, leaving herself naked before the crowd, and begins her walk.
She ignores the jeers and invective at first, telling herself that she will not let the High Sparrow and the “little rose” break her pride, but then the crowd begins showering her with refuse and rotting matter (including a dead cat). Cersei falls, and the crowd laughs. Her escort tries to hurry her along, concerned about the mob growing ugly, but she wrenches away from the captain’s grip. She cuts her foot, but walks on, covered in mud and offal and blood, and the jeers get worse. She starts seeing the faces of her family and enemies (or both) everywhere in the crowd, and falls a second time. She tells herself she is beautiful, but the crude insults penetrate further, and finally Cersei starts to cry, and runs, covering herself as best she can.
She falls again, but finally makes it to the castle gates, where Ser Kevan orders her covered with a blanket. Then she is lifted easily by two giant armored arms, and sees she has been picked up by a huge knight in gilded mail and a white cloak, and realizes that Kevan had kept his part of the bargain, and had Tommen name her champion to the Kingsguard. Qyburn appears and introduces her to the newest member of the Kingsguard, Ser Robert Strong.
“Ser Robert,” Cersei whispered, as they entered the gates.
“If it please Your Grace, Ser Robert has taken a holy vow of silence,” Qyburn said. “He has sworn that he will not speak until all of His Grace’s enemies are dead and evil has been driven from the realm.”
Yes, thought Cersei Lannister. Oh, yes.
Commentary
Ser Robert… Strong. Ser Robert Strong. Really. For your eight-foot-tall cyborg-y hand-tailored champion-of-Cersei knight dude.
Well, that’s… subtle. Not.
(also get off my lawn with your new-fangled slang, YOUTHS)
Man, I really hope they didn’t resurrect King Robert’s months-dead (years-dead?) corpse to make Roboknight, because that is super-ultra-mega gross, if so. On more levels than just the necrophilia one, even. (EWWWWWWW)
But then I suppose someone would probably notice/mention it if the newest member of the Kingsguard was, you know, severely decomposed and maggot-ridden, so either Qyburn found a way around the apparent WYSIWYG nature of corpse resurrection, or he found a slightly fresher dead dude than Robert Baratheon to molest experiment on.
…Unless he just keeps the armor on, all the time, so no one can see. EWWWWWWWWW
Grossness aside, though, either possibility seems legit, since Qyburn also apparently found a way to make the guy eight feet tall (!!) and muscle-bound as all hell, so who knows what that little shit can do? So much Frankensteining, so little time.
But whatever with Roboknight, I am busy being seriously pissed that I have to go back and reread this chapter enough to summarize it, because Jesus Christ if that wasn’t one of the most horrifically uncomfortable passages of this series I’ve yet had to read. And that’s saying something.
No, seriously, I am so strongly tempted to “summarize” this chapter with “zealotry is awful, sexism is awful, people are awful, everything is awful, The End.” I’m probably not going to actually do that (spoiler: I didn’t), but man do I want to, because fuck this chapter, y’all. Fuck it right in the ear.
Do I have to talk about this? Really? Ugh, I suppose I must.
It is absolutely impossible (for me, anyway) to fail to sympathize with Cersei here. In the obvious objective sense of what a thoroughly horrific ordeal this would have been for anyone, of course (the horrificness of which my brief summary absolutely does not adequately convey), but also in a broader sense of acknowledging how utterly wrong it is on every level that this could be regarded as a commensurate punishment for just about anything.
Because, look, I have not forgotten the terrible shit that Cersei has either done directly, or indirectly been a party to, and nor do I dispute that she deserves a comeuppance for those deeds. I’m pretty sure I never have wavered from either of these stances. But this… this is beyond the pale.
It is beyond the pale because this “walk of shame” is such a specifically misogynistic punishment that to me it renders any possible beneficial “penance” that might be wrung from it pointless. This does not punish Cersei for doing terrible shit; this punishes Cersei for being a woman and doing terrible shit, and that is not acceptable. Not just because it misses the point entirely, but because it denies the possibility of any kind of balanced justice for when a man “sins” and when a woman does.
Sure, I bet they could have stripped a guy naked and shaved him and paraded him through the city for his sins, but would it have had the same impact—would it have inspired the same blatantly sexualized and vicious invective—as doing it to a woman? I would say not. So, not the same.
And that makes it entirely orthogonal to the crimes it purports to punish her for, because the only thing this “shaming” accomplishes is to reinforce the idea that the only worth that women have are contained in their bodies and their sexuality, and that therefore the only punishments worth giving them are to denigrate and/or exploit their bodies and sexuality.
In other words, it degrades not just Cersei but, by extension, all women. And that shit is not cool. Put her in prison, sure. Exile her, sure. Execute her, sure. Do anything to her that you would also do to a man in her position and having committed treasonous crimes.
But this? This is fucking bullshit.
*flips middle finger to everyone involved*
“Whore!” someone cried out. A woman’s voice. Women were always the cruelest where other women were concerned.
True. Society-wide systems of oppression work in part because they convince their victims to participate in their own subjugation, and reward them for enforcing that oppression upon their fellows. It’s the oldest trick in the book, and it’s been played on women and other oppressed groups for centuries—up to and including the present day. Lovely, isn’t it.
All that said, Cersei is certainly not an innocent, nor any kind of Messianic figure, which is why I’m sort of bemused at the not-insignificant similarities this “walk of shame” bears to Jesus’s Via Dolorosa (or the path he walked on the way to his crucifixion), right down to the condemnation from the dominant religious power, the jeering crowds, the reluctant help from an outsider, and the falling down multiple times. I’m not sure what (if anything) Martin is trying to say with that, but I suspect it involves irony.
One of the novices had brought a robe for her, a soft white septa’s robe to cover her as she made her way down the tower steps and through the sept, so any worshipers they met along the way might be spared the sight of naked flesh. Seven save us all, what hypocrites they are.
*snort* Well, I’m totally with Cersei on this one: what a pile of hypocritical horseshit.
Although, I’m not actually sure “hypocrite” is the right word to use there. Hypocrite is generally defined as “a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs,” but I suspect what is happening here is not so much a deliberate dissembling, as it is a blithe blindness as to how the statement of belief and its execution are at complete odds with each other.
Is there even a word for that? I tried to think of one but drew a blank; the closest I can get is “hypocrisy through obliviousness,” but that’s pretty clunky. “Negligent hypocrisy”? Anyone? Bueller?
(I bet there’s a German word for it, though. Heh.)
If Joff had only done as he was told, Winterfell would never have gone to war, and Father would have dealt with Robert’s brothers.
Instead Joff had commanded that Stark’s head be struck off, and Lord Slynt and Ser Ilyn Payne had hastened to obey. It was just there, the queen recalled, gazing at the spot. Janos Slynt had lifted Ned Stark’s head by the hair as his life’s blood flowed down the steps, and after that there was no turning back.
I’m not sure, so long after the fact, whether I had known before this that Joffrey was not supposed to actually execute Ned Stark back when it happened, but Cersei’s thoughts on it sound vaguely familiar, so I suspect something was said about it back in the day as well. But in any case… wow, that is really sad.
Imagining Ned Stark being sent to the Wall just as the incursions of the Others began to pick up… damn, how much would have gone differently. Not that I am disparaging Jon’s efforts there, but damn.
So on the whims of a single psychotic manchild turned the fate of an entire continent, it seems. It also seems like that should be the kind of thing that happens less often, historically, in the real world than it does… but it isn’t.
We’re kind of a fucked-up species, aren’t we. Sometimes.
And yeah, that’s all I’m doing for this installment, kids, because blarg. Please refrain from getting crucified—metaphorically or otherwise—if you don’t mind, and come on back next Thursday for More!
Ugh, Leigh!!!!
You know who Robert Strong is I SWEAR YOU DO!!
Agree completely with your opinion on this chapter. This is a chapter in desperate need of a Hermione Granger gif.
There is definite irony in Cersei’s observation that women are cruelest when it comes to misogyny, after her own misogynistic raping behavior of the past two books.
The recap sounds as if Cersei dropped the robe deliberately or voluntarily. I don’t think that was the case.
So, Leigh, haven’t seen a 8 foot tall guy ANYWHERE in the books?
Nowhere?
Hi, all! We thought it might be a good idea to lead off with a comment reminding everyone that if you want to go into detail about the identity of Ser Robert Strong, to please do so in the Spoiler Thread. Noting that Leigh may have not made certain connections yet is fine–anything further should be whited out or (preferably) be discussed in the other thread. Thanks!
Want to relive this wonderfully traumatic chapter? There’s an app for that! It plays audio of the septa going “Shame. Shame. Shame.” every time you shake your phone. Incredibly useful for a wide variety of shameful circumstances.
I can’t be the only one who’d hoped Cersei would make it back to the Keep before “breaking” like she does. Like Leigh, I think she certainly deserves a comeuppance for her general horrid behavior, but since here she’s specifically being punished for her sexuality / gender, I really wanted her to triumph.
@Aeryl
Yeah, there’s certainly some irony in getting that observation from Cersei, “half of them are probably praying for a good raping,” Lannister.
I am fine with Cersei’s punishment. She was nothing if not a evil, smug, proud, idiot. Humiliation is exactly what she deserved and she got it in true ASOIAF fashion. This wasn’t half as awful as a lot of terrible things she did to other people. Like you know turning people over to Qyburn to be tortured and experimented on…
Flagging, becuase I had to reload the page about 15 times before I could get comments to load. I’ve been struggling with this since the new site went live, and there are some days Ijust say ‘screw it’ and leave the site.
Anyway. Loved your commentary and totally agree about how much the nature of the punishment utterly misses the point. I was also a bit curious as to what may have inspired it, because it seems like the kind of extreme/tawdry thing that people love to think about medieval times, but the reality is a little different (not necessarily ideal/good – but just different). I found this article and apparently it is inspired by the walk of Jane Shore (a king’s mistress) although she was not naked. Apparently St. Thomas More didn’t have much good to say about the gawkers either, and also lamented how quickly we are to remember the evil and forget the good of a person. Still a problematic thing, as it still retains many of the shaming elements, but just not quite as sensationalist (although this article posits that part of the reason it was done was to distract from other political issues of the time).
http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2015/0616/What-inspired-that-excruciating-walk-of-shame-scene-in-Game-of-Thrones-video
Leigh, I also experience memory issues at times, don’t feel bad, but I am old heh
Yes this punishment is disgusting, and I am not saying it wouldn’t have a damaging impact on a man forced to walk naked through the city, but there is not the same level of vitriolic disgust leveled at men, even by other men. Jaime could have made that walk and likely there’d be clapping and cheers.
Almost since the dawn of man we’ve stepped on half of our species, I have some hopes for the West, but then you get a birth control debate in the Senate chaired exclusively by men, and I have to shake my head at the idiocy. Thankfully I live in Canada, but it’s not like women are particularly well represented at the political level. Some hope comes from Canadian young women winning Google science fairs, and young women from elsewhere. That’s a good sign.
I mean, I shouldn’t have to cheer for the asteroid when watching Armageddon.
Is all mention of the HBO series verbotten here? I honestly don’t remember. If not, worth mentioning that the episode containing Cersei’s walk just won the Emmy for Best Writing in a drama.
I know others have expressed the thought, but as we are getting to the end of the published Ice and Fire books, and thus caught up to the current HBO series, I’d love to see a Leigh viewing commentary…
Ah, Cersei’s Walk, here at last. Leigh, this is one of those chapters where we’ve been anticipating your reaction… And yeah, I agree with just about all of it. And it’s worth noting that this punishment isn’t for any of the things that readers dislike Cersei for, it’s only for the sins she’s admitted to – lying, and having-sex-while-being-a-widow. So yeah. It’s even harder to picture the Faith forcing this kind of Walk on a man for “falsehood and fornication.”
@2 That’s exactly how it happens, in the book. “The queen shrugged off her robe” is the line.
The hints for whom Frankenknight was are as deep as the Mariana Trench and as high as the Himalayas.
I do not like that this Chapter does make one sorry for Cersei. Her humiliation makes you forget her past sins right up to the point she is in Ser Robert Strong’s arms and you can almost see the gears in her warped mind plotting her revenge.
Jane Shore was depicted in Phillipa Gregory’s “The White Queen”. She wasn’t humiliated as bad as Cersei.
@Lisamarie
I still have a lot of trouble with the new site too. Getting to comments (especially in the spoiler thread) is a huge pain.
Anyway, though the scene itself is painful to read, I do appreciate that I think it’s clear that Martin wants us to understand that this is way over the line. And putting us in Cersei’s head and not on the sidelines looking in helps a lot, I think.
I generally agree with Leigh’s interpretation that part of the point here is making it “clear” that the only worth women have is in their bodies (it parallels nicely with Asha’s thoughts about “cunt” as an insult a while back), but I think it’s more than that.
Cersei’s crimes are things that men in Westeros get away with. How much time has Robert spent whoring? How many bastards does he have? How many times have we seen men, including Robert, order innocents to death or worse and nothing comes of it?
Cersei has always wanted to have been a man, to have gotten the same things Jaime got. Once Robert is out of the picture, she tries to be him. Her behavior has been oftentimes abhorrent, but men who behave similarly abhorrently usually get a pass. She tries to wield power like men wield it (in an obvious fashion, as a counterpoint to, say, the Queen of Thorns), both at the council table and in the bedroom even though Westeros will never accept it from someone like her. Stripping her in front of everyone “unmasks” her as a woman; it’s not just that she’s being specially punished for being a criminal and a woman, but that being a woman is in the eyes of many what makes her actions worthy of punishment in the first place.
Well, the commentary of the walk is mostly spot-on, but I think we have to return to the discussion about “talking equality but only from female perspective” paradox once more… The sparrows want to punish Cersei? Solution: Nude walk though the city. They want to punish the almost-new-High-Septon? Solution: Nude walk through the city. I completely fail to see how this “denies the possibility of any kind of balanced justice for when a man “sins” and when a woman does” or “punishes Cersei for being a woman and doing terrible shit”. With all the sickness of this type of punishment and all, the sparrow’s judgement seems inherently gender-neutral, social-status-neutral, and almost everything-neutral, they do treat all the sinners equally by humiliating them equally for their sins. That we as readers happen to be close to their female victim doesn’t mean the situation is any different for men.
13 – I actually think this chapter is one of the best pieces of story-telling in the fifth book and the sheer horribleness of it is precisely what makes it so good.
In a lot of fantasy series, there is usually a character or couple of characters who cause a huge amount of misery for the protagonists without actually being very competent or intelligent. It, from my observation, is disproportionately female characters although “weedy” men are also often depicted in such a way as well. Usually, there downfall is treated in a rather cathartic (for the audience) or even comedic way. See Umbridge’s downfall in the fifth Harry Potter book. However, Martin flips the perspective by making us see it through Cersei’s eyes. And it is utterly horrible to read and watch, which is good because her actions in the last two books probably wouldn’t be as shocking if she came across as a completely depraved monster. She is still a truly awful person though.
teg
@o.m.
I definitely think it was deliberate. She was defiant and prideful at first.
@15, Even if the man is paraded nude, the optics are different. Men aren’t shamed for their bodies as women are. The insults given to a man wouldn’t have been sexually degrading. I don’t think the men who’ve been paraded worried about the crowd raping them like Lollys was.
And again what Cersei is being punished for are things men are allowed to do. Cersei isn’t being punished for killing people, inciting a religious war, or incest. She’s being punished for fucking men as an unmarried widow.
@18 You comment is incredibly sexist and as a man I can assure you you’re very wrong. Being paraded naked before thousands of stranger would be an enormous humiliation and if you think every male should not care or care less than the woman would only because they are male, it is a supreme sexism at its finest, sorry.
Re: the reason of punishment, I don’t think you can show anything in the text suggesting that the sparrows consider “sex outside of the bonds of marriage” something that men are allowed to do. On the contrary, we learn later that (roll for spoilers) the Kettleblacks will be judged for having sex with Cersei – two of them are imprisoned by Kevan and the other is still held by the sparrows, so very likely they will judge him for that.
I have a different reaction to this chapter than most – I just don’t buy Cersei being broken by the Walk of Shame. Her attitude at the beginning, ‘who cares what the mob thinks?’ fits the view I have of her character. And I just don’t see what’s so terrible about stumbling or the insults that changes that. Maybe if the chapter had concentrated on her feelings of powerlessness in this situation, I could have understood why she was upset. But shame? – Cersei is just not a shame kind of a person.
@19
Branding people who point out sexism the real sexists is the oldest trick in the book. Exaggerating their to try and make it stick is probably the second oldest, so congrats, I guess.
Hello again, everyone–just a reminder to keep things civil. It’s fine to disagree with opinions, but don’t make those disagreements personal, and please try to keep the discussion constructive and respectful.
@21 Pardon?! You really try to say that saying “A man should not be as worried of his genitals being shown to thousands of people as a woman just because of his sex” is pointing out the sexism instead of being sexist in itself? This statement is sexist on so many levels I can’t even name all of them, it assumes the view on one’s body should be dependent on what all the other people of this gender perceive it, it denies all the individualism of specific person, it says humiliating a man is not as bad as humiliating a woman, it shows that the author perceives the individual’s reaction though the gender stereotypes instead of the views of an individual, I could go on and on. And you really want to claim such a statement is “pointing out the sexism”? I can’t imagine what conditions would a statement need to fulfill so that you acknowledge it’s sexist towards men – unless you’re the type of person who shares the view that equality of genders means sexist issues can only be applied to women, but then there’s really nothing to talk about.
To the spoiler thread Robin!
Good use of “orthogonal” btw. I’ve never seen that word use non-mathematically before.
Folks, final warning — let’s steer the discussion away from what constitutes sexism and back to the chapter at hand. Let’s especially stop accusing other commenters here of sexism.
Isn’t the Sparrow’s walk a show only event? It’s been a while since I’ve read the books.
@20: That was my take, too. She seemed to “break” easily, particularly since she was heading to a better place, where she would be free and safe. Now, if she had been walking the reverse trip, heading into captivity, I could see her breaking.
If this is a comment that is too personal, the mods are free to delete it. But I am not sure how we can discuss the chapter at hand without discussing in at least some measure sexism. I think the idea here isn’t so much that it’s fine and dandy to humiliate a man, or even that such a walk wouldn’t be humiliating for a man – just that it is operating on a different level. I think it would possibly be humiliating in different ways.
I think it is clear in this chapter that this specific punishment is chosen for Cersei for multiple reasons – such as to reduce her power, which they are doing by showing her naked and especially unattractive. I am not sure it would have the same impact on a man in the public eye. The nakedness might, in the sense that any person, man or woman, is going to be stripped of their finery and basically in a vulnerable state. But I think there is also an element here of titillation that wouldn’t be present if a man were doing it. Not to mention the thing they are punishing her for is not something they would punish a man for in the same degree. Can you imagine Robert being forced to walk the streets naked?
@26 No, the victim was changed in the show being it the old High Septon while in the book it was the candidate on the verge of being chosen as the new High Septon. But their sin was the same and so was the punishment.
@20: I disagree. I think that Cersei is controlled in large part by her inferiority complex. Being shamed by peasants isn’t a thing she’ll recover from easily. She’ll kill for this.
In general, tough chapter.
On the one hand: I haven’t forgotten, nor forgiven, Cersei’s vile crimes. Bad things happening to Cersei make me smile. On the other hand, I don’t like bigots, and these cheering throngs aren’t here to see her get her just deserts for the women she sent to Quyburn, or the coup, or any of her actual sins, they are here to see a naked famous lady and throw stuff at her.
There’s no one I can root for here. My opinion of everyone in this chapter fell for reading it. What a travesty!
@28 Like I’ve already pointed in 19 the Kettleblack’s case in my opinion strongly suggests that they’ll going to punish men for exactly the same crime. We need the next book to answer with 100% certainty, but it seems very probable. Of course these men are not Robert, but the difference is in that Robert would never let the Sparrows hold power over him, not that they wouldn’t touch him for his sins, because I’m sure they would.
Yes, of course it was chosen for Cersei to have this particular effect, sure – but so was in the almost-High-Septon’s case. What the sparrows cared about was not that much that he gets the punishment but that he is shamed to the point when no-one will accept him as new High Septon. So that’s extremely well mirroring the “respect of people for Cersei as the queen” case. Not for every man and not for every woman this result would be the case (for Robert surely it wouldn’t if it came to that), but it was for this particular man and for this particular woman, in both cases the sparrows used it deliberately to achieve their goal.
Hmmmm… Leigh, your reaction to this chapter is…not exactly what I expected. Well, the railing about Misogyny and gender bias was, but I thought there would be more of it. As for Ser Robert Strong… hmmm, I’m drawing blood from biting my tongue on that one.
I’ve read a lot of people on here and the ASOIAF online community at large expressing empathy for Cersei, but honestly I never felt that way, even in this chapter. Yes, she is being “victimized” as a woman in a repulsive and sexist manner, and yes her sexuality is being blatantly exposed and attacked. But honestly, considering that she in truth IS guilty of adultery, murder of the King, murder of the previous High Septon (which was termed “deicide” since he is the embodiment of the Seven on Westeros, which always cracks me up) and lying about the parentage of her children who are in line to inherit the throne, I feel like she’s getting off lightly here. Especially since she can rely on an 8 foot tall zombified soldier to defend her at trial by combat.
The fact is, that while Cersei’s punishment strikes us as wrong because it is so blatantly sexual, and thus perceived as misogynistic, the fact is that her crimes WERE sexual. The one crime that she confessed to was adultery, so for that crime she is being punished, while her other accusations are awaiting judgment of the trial by combat. And for the crime of adultery, she is punished by her walk of shame. While I don’t condone it, I don’t find it all that outlandish or even misogynist, even if IS sexist (there is a difference between sexism and misogyny, for those who aren’t aware). She is being punished in a sexual manner for a sexual crime.
I really like the comparison between Cersei’s walk of shame and the one that Tywin gave to her grandfather’s mistress. The truth is, that woman was totally innocent, she had committed no crime, even if she might have been the equivalent of a modern-day money-grabbing harlot moving in with an aging millionaire. Tywin stripped that woman of all the jewels and expensive clothing she had been gifted and marched her naked down the streets, and she was left with nothing and nowhere to go. Cersei still has the power of the 7 Kingdoms and the wealth of House Lannister, and her son is still King. So no, I don’t feel all that bad for Cersei. She still got off lightly, because anything less than death is far too lenient a sentence for her in the world of ASOIAF.
Just popping in to say I’m not the least bit surprised we only got one chapter today.
Because it was this chapter.
And I’m fine with that. : )
I’ll steer clear of the sexism discussion. I’ve learned to respect the moderators’ wishes.
I agree with several other commenters about how masterfully written this chapter was. It was excruciating, uncomfortable, and just plain awful to witness Cersei going through that. And I’m certain that was GRRM’s intention.
I felt really bad for Cersei here, and I almost cheered when I read her thoughts at the end of the chapter. Yes, there will be blood. And maybe that’s a good thing.
Everything is awful. There should be a song about this.
Gerit:
Septon Ollidor,one of the Most Devote and a strong candidate forbeing elected the next High Septon wasn’t subjected to the Walk of Shame in the books. You are mixing it up with the show.
What is reported instead in Cercei IV chapter of ASoS is this:
“Septon Ollidor was on the verge of being chosen, until some of these sparrows followed him to a brothel and dragged him naked out into the street” – so yes, he was caught in flagranti and exposed in a public manner, but he wasn’t paraded through the whole city, like Cersei was.
Also, whether you like to believe it or not, men aren’t as shamed by exposure in Westeros as women are. For instance, Tyrion would walk out of his tent naked when in Lannister war camp in AGoT and not think much about it, even though there were low-class women about too – camp followers and such. Ditto how men could be depicted just wearing loincloths in medieval manuscripts, while women always had to be fully covered. It just isn’t the same, however much you’d like it to be.
Leigh,
“but because it denies the possibility of any kind of balanced justice for when a man “sins” and when a woman does.”
You are probably right. They’d likely just kill the man under those circumstances.
@37
Being killed is still a possibility for Cersei. This wasn’t the outcome of a trial. This was “atonement” to let her out on bail. She’s still pending trial for capital crimes.
Five books of wanting to see Cersei destroyed and when it finally comes it’s at the hands of misogyny and religious fanaticism and I’m temporarily on her side. Damn it George.
@32
I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say she’s getting off lightly. But I agree that this is a medieval “punishment fits the crime” sort of situation. Cersei used her sexuality to commit treason and now that’s been taken away from her. It’s like a thief getting his hand cut off.
As far as sexism is concerned, I imagine that if cersei had been a man they’d probably cut off his penis and turn him out in the streets.
This chapter apart from making me feeling uncomfortable also gave some pleasure.I love when crazy people’s ego is being crushed and they are able to see how wrong they were.
I’ve always been pretty conflicted on this chapter. I mean, Cersei’s a profoundly shitty person and I don’t really feel sorry for her at all here, but at the same time she doesn’t really deserve this and it’s not gonna stop her at all and it sets a disgusting precedence for innocent women to suffer the same fate.
I can’t think of a German word for accidental hypocrisy, but the German word for hypocrisy is Scheinheiligkeit (fake holiness), that fits here.
@40 I know right! George is trolling us. Make the most horrid character possible and then make her at least a little bit sympathetic.
I actually enjoyed this chapter the first time I read it, seeing someone get a thorough comeuppance after the exploits of Ramsay, Victarion, and the other monsters infesting this book. But it got more difficult with rereads, and this time I could barely do it. Though I pitied her a bit by the end, the hurt was mostly from the generalized nastiness toward a woman’s sexuality, a woman’s aging body, a woman’s attempts to be a ruler. Appropriate to the storytelling and the setting, maybe. Problematic, massively.
The feeling is that (possibly paraphrased?) without her royal finery and the clothed impression of eternal beauty, Cersei became “no one, just another woman.” So a woman by default is no one, unless she gains power through extraordinary effort (and/or luck). Ugh ugh ugh.
So the schadenfreude pie stayed in the pantry this time, at least for now.
“Negligent hypocrisy” — I like that, and agree. Explain this, you religious caudal peduncles: Nudity symbolizes the purity of a newborn and the casting-off of earthly things…yet the sight of naked flesh is a dirty earthly pleasure which the sinning public may enjoy but the holy must eschew…unless you actually think the public will also be repulsed, which in this case they aren’t…yet you consider yours a religion of the common people without worrying about damaging their souls here. To the Third Circle of Hell with Faiths.
“Only her pride would suffer.” Peculiar form of self-reassurance from someone who likes to consider herself a lion.
@32: I wonder if, when Tytos’s mistress had her fortnight-long walk of shame, the public treated her with quite as much vitriol as they treated Cersei. I hope not. If so, it would be confirmation that they’re being condemned for the same crime. As you say, the people of King’s Landing and Westeros have far more reason to hate Cersei, and I don’t really blame them for expressing it when given a chance. I just hate the precise way they channeled it.
[My self-edited post didn’t appear, and I don’t know if it was the content or issues with the website, so I’m reposting. Apologies if the other one also reappears]
Painful chapter. Kind of like Egwene’s Honey in the Tea chapter in Knife of Dreams but exactly the opposite. By the way, this scene was in the closing episodes of the TV show this year and (I’m convinced) helped Emmy voters nominate Lena Headey for best supporting actress. Truly awesome.
I absolutely get the vibe that Ser Strong is Gregor or at least uses his body. (His head – that might be an entirely different matter….)
@35 – of course there’s a song, in fact two of them. “Always look on the Bright Side of Life” from Monty Python’s Life of Brian is one – and the other is that “Everything is Awful” song from the Lego movie. ;-)
What prevented me from feeling te slightest sympathy for Cersei wasn’t all her past crimes. It was the fact that she alone engineered this entire situation,. She had the previous High Septon killed merely because Tyrion had appointed him. She alone allowed these fanatics to arm themselves and assume authority. And Cersei went to great lengths to bring acts adultery to their attention so they would crush women with that authority. This was some of the punishment she had planned for Margery – for the crime of being her daughter-in-law.
Martin gave us a karma overdose.
Hmm, have there been any cases of capital punishment of women in aSoIaF? I can’t think of any at the moment.
@42 – I have wondered if the humiliation of punishment will actually do something to reform Cersei. I doubt a whipping or a long prison stretch would change her, but this might. I suppose we will find out if the next book ever comes out.
During Cersei’s Walk of Shame, a hooker hiked up her skirt and invited men to look at her while making a crude joke about Cersei. Clearly, women aren’t all that bothered by being exposed.
Gelding is a pretty common punishment for rapists in Westeros. What’s the equivalent punishment for what Cersei did to Taena? Or Ygritte to Jon?
For those asking why their posts didn’t appear right away, please note the “Comments must first be approved…” notice above the comment box. WordPress gives mods the option of reviewing comments before they appear on the site, which is handy when we can’t give a heated or otherwise sensitive discussion our full attention (or need to sleep). Everything that appeared overnight (that wasn’t a repeated posting) has been published–thanks for your patience.
RobM@50: We’d like to avoid going into any specifics of the HBO show here, as usual (just to play it safe!) and please see Comment #4, re: discussing Ser Robert Strong over in the spoiler thread. Thanks!
@42 – love when crazy people’s ego is being crushed and they are able to see how wrong they were. – heh, unfortunately Cersei is not the type to ever see how wrong she is. But I can at least ‘enjoy’ her being humbled in general (even if I am not into the method or what it implies about women in general, or the fact that, at least for the crowd, the things they are reviling her for are not really the true crimes, and it’s just mostly about seeing a woman getting brought down and being made ugly. Perhaps in theory it really is about humility and stripping away vanity/sexuality but in practice that’s not really what is going on. Don’t know if I’m making sense there).
@52 – hah, that is a good point. I bet this IS what she hoped Margery would have to go through.
@49 – I am not sure if I am a religious caudal peduncle (??) but apparently Thomas More also felt it was wrong to gawk too. And yes, obviously its hypocritical. Interesting thoughts on ‘just another woman’ although I think at least this might also apply to men since lowborn/common men are also ‘no one’ in this society, although a woman of equivalent station is even more so…Then again, I don’t know if, for example, Jaime would be seen as ‘just another man’ even if he was naked, because even without the trappings of power, the inherent-ness of his power would be recognized. Although he does seem devalued due to his lost hand….now I’m just rambling!
Hmm, have there been any cases of capital punishment of women in aSoIaF? I can’t think of any at the moment.
@53 – I suppose it depends on what you think of Dany’s burning of Mirri Maz Duur. If Dany had the authority to execute her, then it counts. Otherwise, it was an extra-judicial revenge killing.
Cersei’s thoughts on Ned’s execution are ringing bells because it’s not new information.
It has been a while since books 1 and 2, but yes, they made a deal with Ned to let him live and be sent to the Wall in exchange for his testimony concerning the legitimacy of Cersei’s children. Others (particularly Tywin) condemned Joffrey’s decision as foolish; it was one of the major reasons Tyrion was sent to King’s Landing to act as Hand. I think that both Cersei and Jaime have commented that the entire war would have been avoided if not for that, but I don’t feel up to digging through all of the books to find the relevant quotes (especially since I only have electronic versions on my Kindle).
@59 – Joffrey’s decision was foolish, but the war may well have happened anyway. Since I love alternate history, here goes:
Stannis doesn’t know when to quit, so he would’ve still raised his banners. Robb may have risen for Stannis in exchange for having Ned recalled from the Wall by the “rightful” king. He may have seen himself as following in Ned’s shoes, going to war alongside a Baratheon against a mad king. Presumably, the Riverlands would’ve still risen for Cat. IMO, Robb and Stannis were the two best tacticians in the war. The two of them working together would’ve kicked inordinate amounts of ass. And if Robb or (a loyal) Renly married Marg, bringing the Reach over to Stannis, it’s game over for the Lannisters. Robb never sends an ill-fated envoy to the Greyjoys and Melisandre’s premonitions prevent the Red Wedding. Thanks to Melisandre, Stannis takes the threat of the Others seriously and gives Robb and the Watch the help they need to defend the Wall. Instead of a chaotic realm ruled by a pliant child, Aegon is faced with a realm united under a competent, battle tested king. The Golden Company is defeated and Jon Connington dies a broken man. Doran Martell realizes that Dany’s dragons are the only hope to gain his vengeance and sends Quentyn east to try to fulfill the secret pact. Oh wait that happened anyway.
I know it is impossible to remember every key detail of the story because this series is going on for 4 years now but forgetting those major points takes the fun out of reading the summary.
Mod @56 – I was surprised by the new policy requiring pre-moderation, as I’ve been here since the beginning. Re the TV show, I understand the policy re avoiding spoilers but I thought that saying that a scene was really good without supporting details would pass muster. Oh well….
I think it’s just this thread because the conversation started getting kind of heated – if I recall my first comment didn’t need moderation, but then once people started with the personal attacks they put an extra layer of modding on the comments.
Caudal peduncle: The base of a fish or whale’s tale. My nerdy word for arse
@54 People don’t “reform” from going through painful events. Pain is not educational, traumatic events aren’t learning experiences – they tend to leave people with more scars (not necessarily physical), distrust, and anger, not with a longing to become a more moral person. Nobody becomes “a better person” because of being hurt – although some people manage to do it in spite of what happened to or was done to them.
(One of those things it drives me crazy when people say.)
@50: Heh, it’s funny you should mention that. The Lego Movie was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read “Everything is awful”. I’m not sure if that was Leigh’s intention. And I do remember that scene from Life of Brian. It was an odd time to be singing, but the song itself was pretty upbeat (“If life seems jolly rotten, There’s something you’ve forgotten!”).
@60: I like alternate fake history too, so let’s see how things would go in my mind. Stannis and Renly’s plot line wouldn’t change at all, since Renly had notions of grandeur long before Ned’s death. Maybe Ned could convince Robb to head back North and stay away from conflict, like the Eyrie did. But that could only work if the Lannisters stay away from the Riverlands. I can’t recall if Robb had already captured Jaime before Ned’s beheading, but that could complicate things. In either case, Robb would want his sisters back. The peace (or cease-fire) would hang on each side having their people returned. In this scenario, the Greyjoys never attack Winterfell and Bran never goes on his mystical journey beyond the Wall. Hm, maybe things would change for the worse, considering my suspicions regarding Bran’s role in stopping the Others.
The one thing that would definitely change is that we would know who’s Jon’s mother. Ned would have way too much free time at the Wall to avoid that line of questioning for too long.
Hah, the Lego Movie was my first thought too, although it’s worth pointing out that the song is ‘Everything is AWESOME’. LOL.
Yes, of course it was chosen for Cersei to have this particular effect, sure – but so was in the almost-High-Septon’s case. What the sparrows cared about was not that much that he gets the punishment but that he is shamed to the point when no-one will accept him as new High Septon. So that’s extremely well mirroring the “respect of people for Cersei as the queen” case. Not for every man and not for every woman this result would be the case (for Robert surely it wouldn’t if it came to that), but it was for this particular man and for this particular woman, in both cases the sparrows used it deliberately to achieve their goal.
I think this analysis is SPOT ON. And let’s not forget that Cersei wielded her sexuality the way Jaime wielded his sword. This walk of shame would not been near as shaming if people were admiring her beauty instead of mocking her (“she’s as saggy as my mum”). She is being confronted with the fact that her supreme weapon has started to diminish, just as Jaime no longer has his supreme weapon – his sword hand. All that said, as a woman I felt no discomfort at all at her punishment. As the analysis above points out, it was a great punishment for Cersei.
@9: The punishment of Jane Shore did indeed probably have more to do with the political issues at the time, but not the way that article claims. “To distract the population from the fate threatening the Princes in the Tower”? Huh? So the population was prophetic and had to be distracted from something no one knew would happen a month or months later – if it did happen? I thought people only need to be distracted from something that’s actually happening.
No, actually what it was about was that Jane Shore was involved in an anti-Richard of Gloucester conspiracy that had been forged between William Hastings and the Woodville faction – which was surprising because they had been bitter enemies up to that point. Shore is thought to have been the go-between between Hastings and Elizabeth Woodville and her son Thomas Gray, the Marquess of Dorset, who were both at the time at the sanctuary. (She supposedly was at some point involved with Hastings and also with Dorset, after Edward IV’s death.) When Hastings was executed, Shore was sent to prison. She was made to take a penance walk through London in her kirtle. But since she was a beloved figure in London / she was considered a nice, warm person – people apparently weren’t treating her that badly, unlike Cersei’s Walk (unsurprisingly, since Cersei is hated by the people of King’s Landing). Later, while she was in prison, Richard III’s solicitor general Thomas Lynom fell in love with her and asked for King’s permission to marry her. A letter has survived from Richard to his chancellor (Bishop John Russell) where he says he is in “full great marvel” that Lynom wants to marry Jane Shore – he clearly did not like her – and tells the chancellor to try to change Lynom’s mind, but if Lynom still insists, to release her into the custody of her father and gives permission for the marriage to happen when he gets back to London. Jane Shore indeed did marry Lynom and they had one daughter.
An earlier example of a woman who had to endure a penance walk – although not for anything sex-related (although it’s very probable that the fact she was an “upstart” commoner was held against her – she was a former lady in waiting to her husband’s first wife and got involved with a royal duke and eventually married him) but for alleged witchcraft, was Eleanor, Duchess of Gloucester, wife of Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester, brother to Henry V and uncle and former regent to Henry VI, who later fell from grace as others became more powerful in his nephew’s reign. Eleanor was accused of trying to bring about the King’s death by witchcraft, and the penance walk was just a part of the punishment -her marriage was annulled and she was sentenced to life in prison. It was all mostly aimed against her husband, who was forced to retire from political life, later was charged with treason himself, and died a few years later (there’s suspicion he was murdered). In the meantime, Eleanor was moved around from castle to castle, among others she was imprisoned at the Isle of Man, and she died after 10 years in prison.
Podcast Winterfell recently did an interview with a historian about medieval penance walks: http://podcastwinterfell.com/2015/06/15/pw-special-interview-w-larissa-kat-tracy-phd-about-cerseis-walk-of-atonement/
@13: Talking about fictional portrayals, Sharon Kay Penman’s “The Sunne In Splendour” (a much, much, much better book than any of Gregory’s) has a very memorable and sympathetic portrayal of Jane Shore.
@Isilel,36
But that’s just exactly this type of generalization we all (?) hate so much when it comes down to gender issues. If Barristan has some examples of girls “choosing fir over mud” and makes it a general statement about girls, it’s “so much sexist, how can he use such generalization, every individual is different, let’s talk about it in half of the comments”. If you take an example of a man who’s not ashamed of his body and say “see, this example proves that for men being exposed naked is not as hurting as for women”, then it’s fine and no gender generalizations are involved, nothing to talk about, sure?
On average an average men would not be as scarred by such walk as an average women, that much is true, but that doesn’t make the statement about it being lesser punishment for a man having any shred of truth to it. It is true (at this point of time, with these environmental factors, etc etc) that on average there are more good programmers amongst men then amongst women, but if someone says “Employing girls in IT is a good idea because they are worse at it” would you call it a sexists statement or not? But that’s exactly what you do, you take something which is true only on average and say “This is lesser punishment for a man than for a women, because men aren’t as shamed of their body however much you’d like it to be.” What is the difference between these two sentences apart from that the genders are swapped? So why is one sexist and the other is not?
(You’re right about septon Ollidor, been a moment since I read it, but then again the only difference here is that one walk was “spontaneous” and the other “staged”, but all the rest is the same. I certainly don’t believe “they dragged him into the streets” means they dragged him out of brothel to show to 3 random people who happened to be on the street and said “that’s all, thank you, we’ll going home now”. If it was the case it wouldn’t at all be enough to shame him out of the post. You don’t always need the text to throw you everything in the face to know what happened.)
@68 thanks :)
Oh, of course I meant “isn’t a good idea because they worse at it” in case it wasn’t obvious ;D
@67: Thanks for clearing that up. I guess it would be confusing for people who haven’t watched the movie.
And if anybody here hasn’t seen it yet, go watch it now. It’s hilarious.
@18: I don’t agree with that. A man would probably not be shamed in the same way and would not feel as threatened, but Cersei’s Walk was not just about slut-shaming, it was also body-shaming. (Which reminds me a lot of what tabloids do today, publishing paparazzi photos of attractive female celebrities without makeup, when they’ve just gone out of their house in the morning, or on the beach in a bikini to focus on their cellulite. For many people, there’s something deeply satisfying in seeing that famously beautiful celebrities are “just like us”, not as godlike and perfect as the non-paparazzi media usually presents them, and the tabloids enjoy making a full use of that. With Cersei, she is not just a famous beauty, but also a Queen, and one that was proud and arrogant and very unpopular with the people, so they enjoyed the opportunity to hurt and humiliate her as much as possible. If Margaery had been forced to walk naked, people probably would have been much nicer to her.) And men are often body-shamed, except in their case, the mocking and shaming is usually focused on their penis and its size.
@31 But it’s telling that it’s only men of the Faith, in addition to women, who are shamed for their sexual behavior in that way. TWOAIF spoiler for a sort of exception that doesn’t really contradict this: (Aerys II did a non-nude penance walk for his adulteries, but it was of his own choice.) It’s because holy men, like women, are held to a different standard and expected to be “chaste”. (So many kings and other men throughout history were known for their womanizing, drinking and hard partying, but only Rasputin, who was a monk, is really notorious because of it.) Men in general, especially noblemen, were even expected to have mistresses, sleep around, go to prostitutes; it was OK even if they were married, and expected if they were not. It’s the same in Westeros. Robert is only notable because he really went overboard with it, but he was still popular and not shamed for it. The public today, especially in the USA, is far more judgmental of politicians and leaders regarding their sex life.
(And now I’m imagining Kenneth Star making Bill Clinton walk naked through Washington D.C…)
Also, the Kettleblacks aren’t accused just of sleeping with some widow – nobody would bat an eyelid at that – but of sleeping with the Queen – and Osney, of course, admitted to the murder of the previous High Septon. It’s not about them, it’s about who she is.
@37, @41: Actually, no. They would never force a king or prince consort to walk naked and do penance for merely having sex, even committing adultery, let alone sleeping with someone while he is a widower or unmarried. In fact, nobody in their society bats an eyelid when men sleep around.
As for the capital crimes like treason, murder, regicide and “deicide” (murder of the High Septon), Cersei may still be executed for them, just like a man would. She was only made to do the penance walk for the sins she admitted – fornication.
Incidentally, in the real European Middle Ages, she would probably not be in danger of being executed, she would be looking at life imprisonment, because people balked at the idea of executing a woman. In France in 1315, there was a scandal when two daughters-in-law of King Philip Le Bel, Margaret and Blanche, were accused and judged guilty of adultery (apparently Philip’s daughter Isabella, queen of France, had a big hand in this; this is all described in Maurice Druon’s “Les rois maudits”, which was a big inspiration for GRRM), but they were only imprisoned, while the men condemned for being their lovers were gruesomely executed (and supposedly first castrated). There really aren’t many medieval cases of queens or princesses tried for adultery. Women were usually not executed for non-sexual crimes that men would be executed in the same situation, like treason; Edward IV executed many Lancastrians after his victory in 1471, but not Margaret of Anjou herself; unlike other main instigators of the Buckingham rebellion against Richard III in 1483, Margaret Beaufort got away with just house arrest under the supervision of her husband Thomas Stanley (in hindsight, probably not a good idea on Richard’s part), and as in the example above, even when a woman was being targeted and punished severely, like Eleanor Duchess of Gloucester, she was not executed. (That did not always apply, though – clearly the English had no problem with burning Joan of Arc alive, though officially it was the Church who tried her. And there was the case when George Duke of Clarence went a little nuts after the death of his wife Isabel Neville and accused and promptly hanged his late wife’s elderly lady-in-waiting for supposedly having poisoned her – but that incident was a big scandal, among other things because George was usurping the kingly right, and led to his own imprisonment by his brother, King Edward IV.) That changed with Henry VIII, that champion of equal rights of women to be put to the block. GRRM obviously drew some inspiration from the fates of Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard.
(Incidentally, that’s another similarity between the position of women and churchmen – people also balked at the idea of executing a man of the church. Again, Henry VIII was in favor of equal rights of getting your head cut off in that case, too.)
I think Cersei’s punishment was fitting.
Cersei is not a man. Men and women are different, physically. A man can be punished with castration (as is implied to have happened to Theon) but that obviously can’t be done to a woman. What does a woman have that a man doesn’t have? In general, the woman’s body is much more jealously guarded than a man’s. Just look at the debate over a woman’s right to go topless in public. And especially in this culture, where a woman’s virginity tied to honor and honor (or being percieved as being honorable) is of upmost important, modesty is ingrained in women like Cersei.
Cersei’s claim to fame is that she is the most beautiful woman in Westeros. Her beauty is a symbol of her high birth and of her superiority over all the common folk. So by forcing her to walk nude through the city the High Septon is not only shaming her for being a slut (which is wrong) and is humiliating her (which is good), he’s showing the people of King’s Landing that the venerated queen isn’t some flawless goddess but a real person with stretch marks, wrinkles and sagging boobs. He’s knocking her right off her high horse and showing her to be the same as all the other women in the city, nobility be damned. And that is VERY good.
And since it’s Cersei I feel zero pity for her. She has sex with her brother, murdered her husband, murdered his bastard babies, gave her friends over to Qyburn for “experiments,” attempted to rape her friend (and lost interest in her when she reciprocated) and oh yeah MURDERED BABIES. So fuck Cersei. She deserves every single thing she’s gotten and more. And it’s a shame she’s not a man and they can’t castrate her too.
@75: And Lady. Don’t forget what she made Robert do to Sansa’s direwolf.
All these layers of sexism and misogyny and injustice and schijnheiligheid (it’s Dutch ;-)) and pity and so called redemption or atonement that Martin skillfully wove in this chapter did not distract me from the utterly satisfactory and entertaining value at the core of this chapter: Cercei finally got what was coming to her. It was beautiful. It was popcorn time.
It was almost perfect. Not completely of course. Because at the end it did not change her one single bit. It only changed how others perceive her and it just made her more determined to get revenge.
The only pity I felt was from knowing she would just stay the same asshole she had always been.
Yeah, Heronimus Rex, my thoughts during that chapter were like: Ewww. Now that’s totally going to make her a better person Mr. High Sparrow. Except not. It’s going to make her an even worse person. Just what we need with Queen Cersei.
@77: Wouldn’t that be likely to be the case with anyone? I don’t see how being humiliated and abused like that would ever make anyone into a better person or make them atone for anything. And I don’t think anyone really intended it to be so; it was meant to ruin Cersei’s authority and aura and therefore her political standing.
LM – Of course I knew the real title of the song. I never let reality get in the way of a good joke.
@75 – My memory is that “murdered babies” was Joff’s work, combined with Janos Slynt, not Cersei. But she has plenty more on her ledger.
Annara – thanks for all the info! I had not heard of Jane Shore before (I just googled ‘walk of shame inspiration’ and picked the first article that came up, so I apologize if there are any glaring inaccuracies/misrepresentations).
@78 and others.
I think we’d like to THINK that somehow experiences like that will make a person realize, ‘oh wow, it sucks to be on the other side’ and gain some perspective/empathy/humility. BUT – I am in agreement that this particular experience probably was not crafted with that motive in mine (aside from superficially) and was more about sending a message/humiliation. Which is different than actually teaching humility (Dork moment…as I was just typing this out I realized the common root of the words humiliation/humility. I’m sure you all noticed it way before this, lol). Not to mention that the experience is quite objectifying an depersonalizing so it’s not really teaching anything about the dignity of all people, etc. I’m not denying that it is satisfying in a certain way (for the reader), but it’s certainly not going to be edifying.
Plus, I don’t even think Cersei is amenable to that kind of teaching. I definitely remember in my own past though there were a few moments in my life where I had to rethink a few things after eating some humble pie (likewise, there are also experiences where, to my shame, being made fun of/bullied did not stop me from sometimes lashing out at others), but I am trying to be a better person. I doubt Cersei even recognizes the need to become a better person.
On a slightly different note, I do think it was a political mistake for Kevan to agree to this walk. It doesn’t just humiliate Cersei, it reflects on the Lannisters in general and makes people less likely to accept Tommen and Kevan’s authority also.
The Tyrell move of bringing in a bunch of soldiers to intimidate the Faith into releasing Margeary was much better, reinforcing their show of power. What Kevan should have done was talk Mace into including Cersei’s release in his demands – The High Sparrow is our common enemy kind of thing.
Oh goodness, yes. Just imagine what Tywin would have done to the poor sod who’d dare to even just suggest this punishment.
@82 – Why would Mace agree to that? He isn’t the fool they made him to look like on HBO.
@84 – actually, Mace probably is but he is not as obviously ridiculous as the other versions. But I agree the Tyrells would try to avoid helping Cersei absent additional commitments that Kevan and Cersei would regret giving.
@79: That was on the show. In the books, Cersei was the one responsible for the murders of Robert’s bastards. And when Lannister men came to look for Gendry, they said the Queen was looking for him, not the King.
She had also supposedly ordered Robert’s bastard twins murdered years before, while Robert was still alive, and sold their mother into slavery (or at least that was a rumor Ned heard). We also know that she threatened to have Mya Stone killed when Robert wanted to bring her to court, and Robert then changed his mind and eventually fully abandoned Mya.
@79: (rot13’d) Ab, V’z cerggl fher Wbsserl’f vaibyirzrag vf n fubj-bayl qrny.
I find a little odd that Leigh thinks this is worse for women. I would think the only thing got hurt was reputation and reputation is equally important to men and women. A man marched out naked would have trouble regain the respect of his subjects too.
I actually felt a great relief for Cersei since she didn’t really lose anything other than power and dignity. If it was only dignity, she could have sent soldiers into the Sept and marched everybody out naked, then stake them. On second thought, stake them naked first and then show them off. Anybody who laughed would lose their tongues and nobody would ever dare to laugh at the lioness again (Pretty much what Joff did to the singer). Dignity immediately restored.
Unfortunately for Cersei, she lost power as well.
I never quite understood why Cersei went to Sept in the first place, other than to gloat.
@88- to talk the High Septon into convicting and executing Margaery.
I read a story a few months ago that immediately reminded me of this chapter. It was about a young girl who had to fight a judo match with a young boy. The boy reacted disgusted and disparagingly and made it very clear that he didn’t want to fight her because she was a girl. And then the girl totally kicked his ass in a fair fight and the boy was crying on the floor with the girl towering above him. Basking in her victory.
But years later the girl realised that she didn’t really win that day. She just created another loser. Another loser who will probably have his shame turned into anger and hate against girls.
Now I know that all this boy versus girl stuff in that particular situation has nothing to do with anything in this chapter, but there is one thing that both stories have in common: the High Septon created another loser too. And this loser will hate with all her heart.
@90
Supposedly the decision on whether that loser will live or not will rest on trial by combat. To the High Septon, there’s still another chance of making the loser die.
Annara Snow@74,
The problem with adultery for a Queen being a big deal and not for a King is just an unfortunate consequence of human physiology. It wouldn’t be as much of a problem today, with genetic testing. But in a Westeros type society such a thing would be treason. Adultery by the Queen is potentially usurping the rightful heir via deception. No one would care a wit if some woman in Flea Bottom cheated on her husband. But in the case of royalty it has major impacts on the state itself. THAT is why it is treated differently, not out of any sort of sexism (not that there isn’t rampant sexism in other areas of course).
The evidence of this is that Jamie would certainly have been executed for treason if it had been discovered. Robert Baratheon wasn’t punished for his infidelities because it had no impact on the state. It was obvious that any children from those unions were not legitimate. Not so, for Cercei’s illegitimate children.
@82: You’re overlooking one option: that Kevan wanted Cersei to suffer this humiliation as well (or simply stay in the sept instead). He’s been doing pretty much everything he could to make sure that she couldn’t return to power, because he considered her too destructive. And as Cersei noted at the beginning of the Walk, he made sure that no Lannister association was present, to show that the shame was hers alone.
@92 Robert Baratheon wasn’t punished for his infidelities because it had no impact on the state. It was obvious that any children from those unions were not legitimate.
And Westeros has NEVER been subjected to wars because illegitimate children tried to take the throne. Robert’s actions also risked usurping the rightful heir.
Aeryl@94,
Those instances were because Aegon the Unworthy legitimized his bastards. An illegitimate son is very little risk to the rightful heir. A non-recognized bastard is no risk. And even with legitimization, there would be no deceit. Everyone would know that the child was not the child of the queen.
At least GRRM gerit gets it.
The not hypocrisy term is cognitive dissonance.
I’m almost sure we were mentioned about a male priest being forced to have a walk.
I think there’s mention of Aery II voluntarily making a walk of repentence after the death of his younger son, one born between Rhaegar and Viserys, somewhere.
While I don’t feel at all sorry for Cersei I agree the High Sparrow is a MAJOR misogynist and this is going to be serious trouble for the women of the Seven Kingdoms. The Faith of the Seven is not itself misogynist apparently given the powerful goddess figures and the high status of Septas who apparently are female priests not just nuns.
I don’t think anyone pointed it out four years ago, but one thing that struck me is that from Cersei’s POV, the worst thing about this ordeal was that the people saw her as a “only a woman”, instead of as a queen.
Coming to the party very late I know. (Who’d have thought at the time of the original read that there’d still be no sign of the next book 4 years later!!!).
Anyway just felt compelled to comment on Leigh’s predictable response to Cersei’s punishment. The reality is she is only in this situation because she ordered someone to lie to the Septon with the sole purpose of getting an innocent party convicted of a crime for which she could be executed. After torturing Kettleback(?) the sept know all this plus any number of other details.
Cersei doesn’t have to do the walk of shame – she chooses to do so she can get out of the Septons grip. She can equally choose to remain until her trial for her other crimes but guess what – she chooses the shame option. The only difference between treatment of men and women here is that for a man there would have been no walk of shame option – merely imprisonment until trial and then execution.
This is yet another example of where women getting favourable treatment to a man in similar circumstances is twisted into misogyny. And I state again Cersei can choose to have the same option as a man and await trial while imprisoned but why wouldn’t she take the more favourable path open to her merely because of her gender.